>> Delbert Whetter: Greetings everyone! My name is Delbert
Whetter.
My appearance is I am a white male wearing a blue
shirt with a black jacket and glasses. My hair
is a mix of blonde and gray. I am the executive
producer of a documentary called "Being Michelle."
This has been a very impactful documentary film
which depicts the life of a deaf autistic
woman who has been incarcerated and experienced
many misjustices in the criminal justice system.
Our panel today will be discussing these issues.
And if you would like to see the ASL interpreter
you would go ahead and pin that person which would
spotlight them for the duration of today's panel.
We also are offering live captioning, and if you
would like to access that you'll press -- press
the CC button on the bottom of your Zoom tab.
You could also access the captioning via the web.
During our Q&A portion of today's panel, please
enter your questions in the Q&A section of Zoom.
This is being live streamed through Facebook,
and you can view it through our
Facebook page. We will also have a
recording available to you with captioning
and ASL interpreting available next week.
Today's panel brings together deaf leaders,
advocates, and individuals who have experienced
human rights abuses within the criminal justice
system. So welcome today everybody, as we discuss
what deaf people and disabled people have
faced in our criminal justice system.
This documentary film, "Being Michelle," is the
impetus and the starting off point for today's
webinar. I'd like to introduce our first
panelist, Dr. Damara Goff Paris, who is an assistant --
assistant associate professor and an RSA
grant director at Emporia State University.
She is the PhD-level program director in the deaf
studies and deaf education program. She has taught
numerous college courses for over 15 years. And Dr.
Paris also has worked for many private non-profit
corporate and government agencies, which includes
responsibilities for counseling and managing said
organizations. She currently works for a
non-profit mental health program for the deaf
that advocates for deaf individuals as
they work their way through a prison
court or criminal justice system.
Dr. Paris has been an expert witness on trials, and
is an editor and author of a recent book published
by Gallaudet University called "Deaf People
in the Criminal Justice System."
She is also a long time advocate
for deaf people, especially
deaf women, as well as deaf Native Americans.
I'd like to ask Damara to
please pop on screen for us now.
>> Damara Paris:Thank you!
>> Delbert Whetter: So I'd like to ask you what is your
reaction to seeing the film "Being Michelle,"
and when you watched it,
Damara, what was your reaction?
>> Damara Paris: Wow! This is a very unique movie. A
very much needed movie that focuses on many issues.
I was really touched to see that we have a movie that
encompassed all of the different issues that a person goes
through.
It really exposed all the different issues
that an individual goes through growing up
in the system, going all the way through
school, the isolation of being imprisoned,
and the movie itself was very impactful,
and it's a very necessary movie.
>> Delbert Whetter: Thank you for that response. Yes, let's
move on to our next panelist, Sonya Mangham. There she is.
Welcome Sonya. Sonya is a deaf individual from
Chicago, Illinois. Sonya is a community college
graduate where she studied office technology, and
also graduated from Empire Beauty School, where
she received a certificate and a degree. She has a deaf
husband, and is the mother of four CODA children.
She does have personal experience with the court
and prison system, and she is here today to share
her individual experiences. Sonya, could you briefly
describe your reaction to watching "Being Michelle?"
>> Sonya Mangham: Yes, hi, my
name is Sonya, here's my sign name,
and I'm very happy to have been sent the link
of "Being Michelle" to be able to watch the film.
It really touched me.
I am deaf and she is deaf too.
I can see that she experienced PTSD having grown up in
Florida. That is tough.
Unfortunately, the laws in Florida do not support deaf
people who are invovled with the prison system.
They decided to put a deaf person in prison who is innocent,
with no communication,
who does not know what is happening. It is my gut feeling
that it is called "deaf mental". It is not right.
But I think, Michelle should sue them, at a higher level for
not following the law. She deserves that.
There was no reason for her to stay in jail for five years
-- no reason. I hope she can do some things to improve her
future.
She should have had a CDI – called certified deaf
interpreter – that would have been better,
easier for her to communicate. They would have understood
her body language
and helped make it easier to communicate – a good match with
an interpreter would have made her happier,
helped her gain self-esteem and feel safe rather than having
been sent to jail for no reason!
>> Delbert Whetter: Yes, Sonya, thank you for that. I'd now
like to introduce our next panelist, Sandra Hatibovic,
Sonya, please leave your video on with
us. Sandra, I'm now going to introduce you.
Sandra works at the Cleveland
Hearing and Speech Center,
which is referred to as CHSC.
She provides advocacy services and works
with the deaf pathway program, where she
works with deaf survivors. And they partner with
the Cleveland Rape Crisis Center. She has her B.A.
degree in Education and -- [interpreter makes mistake]
-- Health and Human Services
from Kent State University. Sandra advocates in
the Ohio area, working with domestic violence
survivors, and their domestic violence
network. She has specialty training
in domestic violence, and works with the Abused
Deaf Women's Advocacy Services in Seattle,
Washington. Sandra, please share with our audience
today your reactions to the film "Being Michelle."
>> Sandra Hatibovic: I felt that wow, this is not fair. This
is not right for Michelle to go through what she went
through.
I felt that she was targeted [interpreter error].
She tried to stand up and advocate for herself,
but I'm glad this was
filmed. I'm glad that we were going to be able to
share this with the community at large.
>> Delbert Whetter: Yes, me as well. Panelists, please leave
your cameras on. I'd like to introduce our next panelist,
Mr. John Yeh.
John came to America from Taiwan at the
age of 15. In 1979, he and his brothers
set up a software engineering company,
and he served as its CEO for 17 years.
In 2005, he was the president and founder of
Viable incorporated, who developed different
visual communication access to technology. In
2009, he was charged with mail fraud and served
seven and a half years at a Federal
prison in Pennsylvania. John has been
deeply involved in our community, and has served
on the board of Gallaudet, the National Captioning
Institute, and the National Council on Disability,
as well as the National Deaf Business Institute.
John, can you please share with our
audience your reaction to the film?
>> John Yeh: Yes, good morning everyone.
When I came here to the United States, I
never dreamed that I would end up in the criminal
justice system. I came here to
work hard and to live that American dream.
It was difficult learning English
and learning the language, but I persevered and
did what it was that I needed to do. I founded
a business and I gained a lot of experience.
As was mentioned, I was arrested for mail fraud
and I got a real clear view of the criminal
justice world as I was put into prison.
I was happy and successful, but when they put me in prison
that changed. They did not allow me interpreters,
did not offer communication accommodations. They did not
offer me any of those. Everything was very different
from the life outside of prison. I was there for seven and
a half years, and it was a really horrific experience.
I'm still on probation. I had
no idea that other deaf individuals were having
a similar experience. Under probation I am not allowed to
talk with others who have been incarcerated.
So when I watched the film, I was overcome with emotion. Did
Michelle tell you everything? I don’t believe that was all.
I believe that there were many things that were untold. I
feel that the film is a good start at showcasing the issue,
but I am sure that there are many more stories that need to
be told. I am sure. I am looking forward to the future,
and to the creation of criminal justice reform which makes
equality for deaf prisoners possible. Thank you.
>> Delbert Whetter: I agree John, this film is a great
starting point for our conversation today,
and most definitely, we need more dialogue
about this here in the United States.
So the next question to our panelists is could
you give us a little bit of background
in your relation to this area or your
interest in the topics covered in this film?
>> Damara Paris: All right, I'm gonna go back
for a second. I didn't realize I didn't
have an interpreter. So I was in
charge of a mental health program
for those who are deaf and hard of hearing,
and I worked a lot with individuals
who had coexisting disorders, who had mental health
issues, who had drug and alcohol abuse disorders.
I was able to get a grant to assist with this overall
process. And so we were providing
counseling. We were going into the system and working with
those who had been arrested,
who had been incarcerated, who were going through court
processes,
and we were working on case management and over and over
again I saw this issue
around accessibility, where people were not
bringing in appropriate interpreters or there
were no interpreters at all provided. So I was
engaged in a lot of advocacy in terms of access.
And then the the voca individuals,
they were going through the system
as well. They didn't have any access to their
lawyers. And then just advocates in general.
So we saw that there was a great need to just
get engaged and do something to change things.
Last summer we worked on publishing a book,
and it was a collection of different articles.
We worked with different authors, some who
were lawyers, some interpreters, some advocates,
some who were involved in the mental health
field and profession. We looked at
working within the school system as well.
And we published -- we published this work
because we saw that there just was a real
dearth of information out there. There's not
enough articles, there's not enough information
and training around these issues. So the purpose
of the book was really to aim at educating
people around the criminal justice system.
And the hope is that we can have a class or a
training for officers and lawyers and advocates
so that they have an increased awareness and
understanding of the issues that deaf and hard
of hearing and deafblind people are facing within
the criminal justice system. It's just a start,
certainly this work is just beginning, and we need
a lot more following.
>> Delbert Whetter: Certainly, thank you so much for that.
Sandra, I'd like to ask you in terms of your work and your
experience, when you saw this
film, how did it strike you or impact you in terms
of connections to what you do as a professional?
>> Sandra Hatibovic: Yes, okay. Well I was
involved with the domestic violence program --
survivors program for many years,
and I also collaborate with other
agencies sponsored by the substance
abuse and domestic violence programs.
I made an attempt to work with
them to find out what are
the struggles that are going on
in the deaf community currently.
Clearly the court system and policing
are the majority of the concerns that
people are experiencing, barriers
to communication there.
Police officers unfortunately
in our home area of Cleveland --
in the Cleveland, Ohio area. Sometimes they do, you
know, seem willing fortunately to work with us, so
we are able to then provide training for those
officers who are local to the Cleveland area,
those who want to go to the police
academy, who aspire to become officers. We have
a video ready to show them how they are able to
work as police officers with the deaf individuals.
The video is just very bare bones. We don't have
the depth of information that we would like to
provide them, but it's just basic information.
They've only allowed us an hour to do that.
I wish that we were able to provide an all-day
workshop of some sort regarding deaf culture and
really get into detail and explain about people
who are deaf, people who are deaf and disabled.
But the video does provide a minimal understanding.
And so hopefully we're going to be able to
convince them -- the academy -- to provide us more time
to offer expanded training, so that they know how
to work with individuals who have -- who are deaf,
deaf plus, people who have communication barriers.
So that's my goal is to provide improvement
in the training that we're already offering
in terms of how to provide help for the deaf
individual, the person they're interviewing.
And I really wanted to emphasize advocacy
within the deaf community itself, that being
super important to educate deaf individuals so
that they can understand what their rights are
when they're dealing with the police. What they
can do, what they can't do -- we need to be able
to provide that training to them. Because so often
deaf individuals do not have the language at home,
and so they are not aware of what their rights
are. And once they encounter someone who is a deaf
advocate or a deaf peer and they're explaining
about the law, this is what you can do as a citizen,
this is what you can't do, deaf people have been
unaware. And so they are finally being able to
understand things, for example, the miranda laws or
perhaps what they're being charged with and why.
There's just such a lack of information. Even
having a CDI -- certified deaf interpreter -- or
a non-certified deaf interpreter there on
site to clarify what's going on. Why are you
here? This is what the officer is saying. This
is what you're going through at this point. To
provide that information is so so very important.
And so I would love to continue to work on that,
to improve that, and provide more training, other
than just the basic hour of deaf 101. I would like
to provide something that's a little bit more in-depth.
>> Delbert Whetter: Yes, most definitely. Thank you Sandra,
and clearly the committee is very eager
to work with individuals who come from
deaf backgrounds, but often those in power
are not. So I wanted to now bring this
point of a certified deaf interpreter up,
since several of you have mentioned that.
Would you be willing to expound on how a CDI
would be beneficial in this process. Sonya, would
you like to address that question?
>> Sonya Mangham: A CDI is key to helping a deaf individual
who has not had
a full formal education or who has more language
difficulties. It does not help just to have someone
who knows sign language, because it can be a
very frustrating situation. For example, Michelle,
she had to depend on members of her family
to communicate with her and explain what
the Cleveland officers were saying. And
so you should not have to be forced to
deal with a member of the family as a interpreter,
because of boundary issues. And deaf people are
able to function independently, and we should
not have to have family involved. But there is
policy that has to be provided. Each state requires
interpretation to be provided, and unfortunately
Michelle, she needed to be independent, she
wanted to be independent, she wanted to
maintain her autonomy, and was unable to do
so because the boundaries that were crossed
in the police and dealing with her family. So a
certified deaf interpreter would help in terms of
communication, and that would work here in
the Cleveland area, as well as everywhere else.
And so that's something that we're working on and
we're looking forward to that, and hopefully we can
get other states to be involved with that as well.
And as John was saying based on his experience,
I agree with what he said, a CDI would
have been impactful in his situation as
well to provide communication. He says there was
no communication for him in jail. And so moving to
America from a foreign country and struggling
with the issues of lack of communication.
>> Delbert Whetter: Yes, I totally agree. In fact,
many people don't realize that 90 percent
of deaf people are born to hearing
parents or hearing families, which means
most of those families do not learn sign language.
Deaf people then suffer language delays, and there
are many compounding issues involved. So a deaf
interpreter is critical to helping the deaf person
be aware of what's going on in the situation,
and clearly they must have comprehension.
And communication and comprehension are critical
in these settings and we know that a CDI could
assist in being sure the deaf person is aware of the
proceedings.
>> Sonya Mangham: And then the other thing about
not having family members used in the role
of an interpreter -- that's wrong. There should
be boundaries there and those boundaries were not respected.
>> Delbert Whetter: Right, to foster independence of the
deaf
person. Now in terms of criminal justice system
reform, there's a lot of issues that come into play,
and many things that need to be improved.
What recommendations, John, could you make in
terms of improvements to the criminal justice
system and how it interacts with deaf people?
>> John Yeh: Yeah, as I think about what the panelists have
just shared in terms of training and education and
whatnot, I am 100% in support of that. I was
there for seven and a half years, I was
in prison in Maryland and then was in New Jersey
and then was in Pennsylvania. And in all of those
settings, I faced challenges. I asked for
interpreters and I would not receive them. I asked
for different devices and was not provided them. I
was asked -- I asked for a video phone -- again,
seven and a half years, I was in a situation where
I did not have access to effective communication.
I am happy to hear that you are doing this work, but I want
you to be aware that what you have developed,
the programs, to train the police officers, are actually not
put in practice in prison.
I have experienced that the officers KNOW that ADA law
requires them to provide interpreters,
they know this, but they do not enforce it.
I have asked many times, and sadly that is the truth.
>> Delbert Whetter: Right. Many of your complaints were not
attended to, were not addressed, and even rightfully --
I mean, not rightfully, but straight out ignored. We
also have to consider deaf people who are in rural
jails or in the criminal justice system
where there are no interpreters nearby.
>> John Yeh: Right, and they definitely have to fight to get
interpreters in.
What is wrong with using VRI to interpret remotely? They
refused to provide it. They refused even after I argued with
them.
I have experience in technology and have enough
understanding to explain how it works, but they would not
take the request seriously,
saying that they will do it, but they never did it for years
and years. After almost seven years battling through the
court system, with the support of NAD,
I finally got a videophone one month before I left prison.
It was a shame after seven years of no communication with my
daughter who has down syndrome.
She cannot communicate with me through email or text, she
loves to communicate through sign. I tried explaining that,
but they did not listen and kept putting it off.
I am holding back my emotion, and am telling you that
although they are aware,
they have heard about it and gone through training, they do
not put it into practice.
There has to be someone inside the system watching them to
make sure that they do what they are supposed to.
I hope that they can be forced to enforce the laws and do
the right thing, after receiving the training.
>> Delbert Whetter: You know, you make a good
point here, John, that now with technology and the
multiple access points, there really is no excuse
for improper training or inadequate training. So
now I'd like to ask the panelists about statistics
regarding deaf people who are incarcerated at
various levels in the criminal justice system.
What do the numbers tell us about deaf people?
>> Damara Paris: I think that's a huge question you've
just asked, and I think it's really hard to get
accurate statistics about deaf and hard
of hearing and blind individuals in general.
But specifically within this system, I think one
of the problems that we have is that each state,
and frankly each county, and then the federal
system on its own -- they all have disparate
information. They're not documenting things. There are a
lack of rules around
information sharing. So there's no real consistency
across the board. And then another issue that we
deal with is the documentation itself. Oftentimes
things are documented but in an unclear manner.
So there have been a few studies --
not very many, but a few studies that address the
number of deaf and hard of hearing -- or people who
have vision loss in prison. You'll
see surveys done on a national level with --
vision loss. And the numbers are all over the place.
In terms of those who have been identified with
these losses, we're just not able to accurately
capture that information. We may have
some individuals who are deemed deaf, but they're --
they don't use sign language. So who are the
surveys actually being sent to? And then what's
happening after people who have been incarcerated
are released? Where are we getting that information
from? Especially if your first language is
not English, and you're
receiving a survey in English, how are you able
to respond to that accurately? When we
talk about RespectAbility, they say that
there's 153,000 deaf and hard of hearing
people within the criminal justice system
at the various levels, from local to federal.
And I would assume that some of that is a
guess, some of that is not completely accurate.
When we look at the Department of Justice, about
six years ago they said there was 6.5 percent
of people who were incarcerated had hearing
loss in our various levels of the system.
So that gives us a rough idea of people
who use sign language.
But I believe that most people who use
sign language and are deaf are the most
vulnerable within these systems, because
they're the most cut off from communication.
>> Delbert Whetter: Well, in terms of disability programs in
general,
we see there are more of those offered.
But like you mentioned, do people actually
adhere to what they've been trained to do? Are the
programs providing what they were set out to do?
Are there any specialized programs specifically
for deaf people? Absolutely not. And what you said,
Damara, regarding documentation, the numbers just
aren't divided in ways that are helpful to us.
Now, maybe like in the "Being Michelle" documentary,
we saw her situation, the fact is these surveys or
questionnaires are designed by hearing people
and for hearing people. There's got to be another
way to determine what these statistics really
look like. And we have to consider the fact that
many individuals who are incarcerated are also
experiencing PTSD and other compounding factors.
So in terms of issues that we see
in the criminal justice system,
multi-layered, and when we look at law enforcement
and your individual experience in dealing with
people from law enforcement, directly with the
police or in the court system, what did you notice
that was problematic or what barriers have you experienced,
Sonya?
>> Sonya Mangham: So I grew up in Chicago, Illinois,
and the first time it impacted me was dealing
with DCFS. The Department of Children and Family Services
thought that deaf people don't know what to do with their
children.
And it wasn't until I attended college that I
understood what that was about, what the law looked
like, and understanding that deaf people have civil
rights, people with disabilities have civil rights.
So I looked at the 504, and so I understood,
finally, what was going on as far as,
police and court and social workers at a basic
level. I was trying to figure out for
myself what do I do as I'm approached by these
situations? Do I request an interpreter?
Am I allowed to? In Chicago we have specific companies that
provide the interpreters,
but unfortunately, they don't provide the
training for how to deal with these situations.
It wasn't until I moved here to Cleveland that
I encountered that. But it wasn't easy even then.
So during my encounters with the police I would
say, hey I'm deaf. They may or may not believe me.
And so on our -- we have a card that we can pull
out to prove -- it's a certified card that says you
know what, you're deaf and etcetera, and if you don't
cooperate with me, you know, please call this
number, we can get the situation resolved. And
so they're able to collaborate with us and solve
issues that come up as we deal with the police.
And it actually works. But everyone does not have
the same knowledge as I have. Every individual
has their own level of knowledge and awareness
of what to do, and that depends on where you grew
up, who has taught you, if you've had interpreters,
your deaf community. If you're late deafened and
you don't know sign language that's a whole other
set of problems. And so we need people teaching
classes here in Cleveland and across the country
to show that deaf people, you do have rights.
There is a way that you can go about dealing
with police situations. Unfortunately many states
don't offer that. We have a better situation here,
and deaf people are able to learn and study on
their own independently to figure those things out.
But oftentimes it's not, you know, easy to
understand and people don't have the same
opportunities as I have had. So for example, when
you're encountering police, don't get aggressive,
say, you know what, I'm deaf. And depending on the
training that they've had or not dealing with
the section 504 and the rights that are included
there, perhaps they'll know something about it and
be able to provide interpreters. Other than that,
you're fighting for access. You're fighting to get
the equipment that could provide you access. And
so officers need to know that if you don't follow
the civil rights that deaf people have, if you
violate our rights, you can be fired, you can be
punished because of that. They need to follow the
policies that have been established.
>> Delbert Whetter: Thank you for that, Sonya.
>> Sonya Mangham: You're welcome.
>> Delbert Whetter: Right, training without
knowledge means people will react differently if
they haven't been thoroughly trained. And I'm
glad that you've had some experiences where
police officers have been understanding. But
many of us experience where they are not
open-minded or perceive you as a threat, and deaf
people are worried about their safety in all
interactions because they don't know what knowledge base or
training the police officer has. Sonya, did you want to add
something?
>> Sonya Mangham: Yeah, you're right and I just wanted to
add that
hopefully we'll have an addition to the law in the future.
>> Delbert Whetter: Yes, most definitely, we need
to see modifications to the law. John Yeh,
I wanted to ask you, in terms of the film,
we've seen quite an interesting
reaction from hearing audiences,
in them imagining being a deaf person
incarcerated and not being able to hear.
Now, a deaf person not being able to hear and being
in prison is not necessarily what is frightening
or traumatizing. It's the fact that they are
unable to communicate with others around them.
And it also would be highly dependent on that
individual deaf person's experience growing up
with or without communication. So imagine being
a youngster with a family who did not sign,
not being able to understand the world around
you, then being incarcerated, and yet again
not being able to communicate. So John,
can you share your personal experience.
What was what was that like and
what are your thoughts on this?
>> John Yeh: Yes, because of the lack of communication it
led to those horrific experiences.
You are right. For example, you know that I am deaf.
They broadcasted their announcement through the speaker
calling my name, "John, come to the doctor’s office".
I cannot hear. They would call out three times.
After that, I went to ask about my appointment with the
doctor. They said, "we already called you, but you did not
come."
The officers KNEW that I am deaf, but they still broadcast
the announcement.
Another example from prison: I slept by myself.
The officers would call out through window in the middle of
the night to make sure that each inmate was present and
okay.
I did not know and slept through it.
The officers came by to my bed and pushed me off because I
did not wake up when they called my name. I cannot hear!
They KNOW that I cannot hear yet they did that every night
and kept yelling at me for not listening when my name was
called.
Come on! I became frustrated. Again, the officers KNEW that
I am deaf, yet they talked in my face.
I told them that I cannot hear, and asked them to please
write to me using paper and pen to communicate with me.
They did not want to write and kept talking to me. It
happened over and over.
I know that the criminal system knows what they should
provide, but still they do not implement it.
They ignored it and kept yelling at me for not being in
compliance. It was sad to see that.
I sympathize with other deaf prisoners who have gone through
this, as I know I am not the only one who experienced this.
I don’t know what I can do, but I look forward to the future
when the law enforces all this to be put in practice --
train them, change their attitude to be understanding of
deaf inmates who have a difficult time communicating,
and to do something about it – get an interpreter rather
than saying no. Get help rather than saying no.
Install light alert system rather than saying no. Call me in
person rather than saying no. It was truly terrible.
>> Delbert Whetter: So John, this story is
incredible, and audience today, please know
that all deaf people have very similar experiences.
You may think that this is an isolated or one-off
experience that Mr. Yeh had or that Sonya had.
That is not the case. This is a widespread problem.
I'd like to address our next question: why is
it that there is such difficulty in accessing
communication and our rights in the prison system?
What could be done to address this issue? Sandra?
>> Sandra Hatibovic: The struggles exist because there's
not enough education. People don't understand that we
have the Americans with Disabilities Act that is
provided for us. Especially in rural areas, people
do not understand -- they are unaware of this law. If
we continue to educate people, that could provide
a better understanding of the law and knowledge
of the law. The second reason would be finances.
People don't have enough money to pay interpreters,
organizations don't have the finances for that.
In larger communities there is more knowledge of
what to do, they know how to provide interpreters,
but can it can still be a challenge in areas that are rural
with less population.
In the Cleveland area especially, in other states
as well I imagine, there are interpreters who will
come to the court to interpret, but they do have to
provide two interpreters. And so oftentimes they'll
forget to provide the table interpreter who sits
with the attorney. They have to have someone do
that, and more often than not, they just provide
the one interpreter who stands at the front of the
courtroom. We need several interpreters to be in
that courtroom, because how are we going to be able
to communicate between the lawyer and the deaf
individual? There is conversation happening
at that table that the client needs to be aware of.
During mediation, etcetera, there are separate rooms that
they are taken to to discuss, and we need to have
the interpreter in there early to figure out --
to be a part of what's going on with this -- with
the situation before they go into the courtroom,
as well as the visitors. They need to have
someone separate -- in a separate room with
the interpreter. So there's multiple interpreters
that are required basically for this. In prison
systems, sometimes they will have -- especially here
in Cleveland which I've seen and, you know, kind of
been appalled at -- they have the visiting
center. There's a slight box where there's
glass where they're able to see each other across
the room -- the visitor as well as the prisoner.
So deaf people have to sit back from this
small box, the size of a mailbox lid, to sign and
interpret and communicate with whoever's across
the way, the visitor. But how are you able to see
their face, their body language, their expression,
the entirety of their language, if you're only
exposed to them in a small slot? So the visuals are
not appropriate. And there's no finances
to provide for the -- the improvement of that
system, of creating a window that's bigger for
people to be able to see each other. One person
can make a difference, but it's very slow going.
>> Delbert Whetter: Thank you for that, Sandra. In the film
"Being Michelle," a lot of issues were illuminated
in the prison system. It shows that there are
different programs to help prisoners prepare
for when they are released.
There's educational programming,
there is addiction recovery programs,
group therapy, counseling services --
so hearing inmates regularly take advantage
of these programs and put them on their --
note them on their record to show their
intentions of perhaps an early release,
and the fact that they are preparing
themselves for the time that they are
to enter the world. Now imagine: these programs do
not provide sign language interpreters, therefore
deaf people cannot participate in any of these
programs that might help them for early release,
that might help their record or profile seem more
attractive to a court. So deaf people are penalized,
more so than hearing people, for their crimes. They
are not able to access any of these jail funded
programs, and perhaps this even protracts their
time in jail or in prison, because they cannot
access these programs that they should be able to.
Does anyone have any thoughts or comments to this?
John or Sonya?
>> John Yeh: Yes this is definitely true.
They offered a program that would reduce the prison time for
those who attended classes or training.
Yes. I was thrilled about that and wanted to participate,
but when I told them that I would need interpreters, they
avoided providing one for me.
I asked many times and as a result, I did not receive a
reduction to my time.
There were courses that were interest-based, such as
investing, tax or other topics,
I was interested in taking these classes and asked for an
interpreter,
which resulted in the class being cancelled because of me.
They intentionally did this to me.
This infuriated the inmates but I told them that I have the
right to join the class which isn’t accessible to me.
I remember once I signed up for a class and they told me
they would provide an interpreter. I was thrilled and sat in
the class waiting,
but the interpreter did not show up. The instructor went
ahead and started the class while I sat there not being able
to participate.
I asked about the interpreter and they said that someone
would come. The class ended without anyone showing up.
Were they honest with me or was I deceived? I don’t know.
It happened many times. It was a terrible experience. It was
all talk.
They KNEW that I have the right, but they still did not
implement what they were supposed to do. Such a shame.
>> Delbert Whetter: Well clearly this is not an example of
equal justice.
>> Sonya Mangham: John, let me tell you something. Even
though they ignored you and neglected you, you
have a right to sue them. You can go to court and
win against them, against those officers, against
the prison system. You can sue them. They did not
have the right to ignore you. They have to follow
the law as well, that's not fair.
>> John Yeh: Yes I did that, and still was ignored, still --
even after doing such.
>> Sonya Mangham: It didn't work?
>> John Yeh: I went through the grievance process,
I went through a variety of levels, and --
escalated that grievance all the way to the warden,
and was -- neglected even there. And then
I was in Pennsylvania at one point, and --
even took it to the national level -- the federal
level, and still was ignored. They did not care.
>> Sonya Mangham: So it didn't work?
>> John Yeh: So I attempted to go through
their process, and it was finally, when I got a
hold of the National Association of the Deaf,
that they were willing to work with me through
a five-year process to be able to obtain a video
phone and interpreters. But it took over five years
of chasing them down and still it wasn't resolved.
For seven years I received ZERO services.
As I mentioned earlier, I was released a month after they
finally gave me services.
>> Delbert Whetter: Right. Sometimes when the law doesn't
work, the law needs to be changed, and we have to fight
through
political arenas to make these changes to really protect
ourselves as citizens as we should be in the system.
>> John Yeh: I agree, this is why I am puzzled that some
states provide services and others do not.
It happened to be a struggle for me in Pennsylvania.
I am happy about the work that you have developed,
but I am concerned that even if they listened and learned
they do not implement the practices. There are no actions.
I wish that there is someone enforcing the policies from
within the system. That would help. Crossing my fingers.
>> Delbert Whetter: Yes. Dr. Paris, I wanted to talk to you
about your book, which I believe is going to have a
major impact in moving forward. I understand that
you and your co-authors -- they're developing some
educational materials. I'm curious as to what
those supplementary materials will look like?
>> Damara Paris: Well, with "Being Michelle," you know,
we've looked at this need to expand our materials to really
support the audience's understanding of what's
actually taking place, and to really guide them
through all of these issues, from education --
the education to prison pipeline, the interpreter
issues, the legal issues. We're realizing that we
need to help those instructors in colleges and
universities guide those watchers through this. You
know, and this isn't limited to higher education.
We need these types of audiences who are here
today with us. So we're working on expanding
a lot of that information and those resources
so that audiences have a better understanding
as to what's needed, and what's required
by the Americans with Disabilities Act.
So in a few more months, we believe we'll
be able to release some of those resources.
But to go back to some of those things
that a few of the panelists mentioned
earlier, I'd just like to to capitalize on.
Sonya talked about police training.
There are some statistics out there
from the Ruderman Family Foundation. And they
talk about how one third of people who
have interactions with law enforcement
are killed. And so these people with disabilities
are being murdered
by the police because of the communication
breakdowns, and for a variety of other reasons.
So this training is more than critical. We can also talk
about rural areas.
They have to build their infrastructure and
their resources ahead of time. They have to work
with our deaf communities, which means our deaf
communities need to become more active in these
areas, and participate and engage
in advocacy. We need to see more of that within
our system. The unfortunate thing is that we
see this taking place in the criminal justice
system in Louisiana right now. They're training
hearing prisoners to become interpreters for
those who are incarcerated. And this is such a high
risk behavior and activity.
We're creating a system where they're becoming more
vulnerable, because they're not able to understand
these individuals -- these hearing inmates have
not learned officially how to become interpreters,
they don't know that they are creating further
misunderstandings, and then they get
involved in some of the vindictive behaviors that
-- some of the inmates getting get engaged in. So
it just creates a situation where deaf individuals
are increasingly vulnerable. We need to engage in
advocacy with both deaf and hearing individuals.
>> Delbert Whetter: Sandra?
>> Sandra Hatibovic: And I just wanted to make a brief
comment.
ASL is the fourth most popularly
used language in the United States,
but where are the resources
for these deaf individuals using ASL,
as far as counseling, drug addiction
-- all different types of counseling.
It's the fourth most popular language in the
United States but the resources are bare minimum.
>> Delbert Whetter: Yes. Unfortunately, we're moving
to the close of our program. Let's move to our
question and answer section. Panelists, feel
free to answer any questions as they appear.
Somebody says I have a friend in prison who
is serving a 25 year to life service and
this person is not receiving
what it is that they need.
They've asked for ADA accommodations in
terms of a specialist. They need access.
They've been told they are not allowed to use
a particular VRS provider, but they have to use
one that the prison system has provided. So our
audience member wants to ask what about denial of
these rights? Their friend in prison also asked for
a particular interpreter, but were not given that.
So this audience member has
asked what is it that we can do
to help this deaf inmate get their desired
services and technologies provided to them?
Do we have any suggestions for
this question in the Q&A chat?
I know it's a tough question.
>> John Yeh: I'll weigh in on that. As you know,
we've had amazing advances in technology.
There's questions about interpreters and
qualifications of interpreters and accessibility
to interpreters, and I get that. There are questions
about who is able to come. There are
plenty of women who don't want
to come into the prison scenario
-- or the prison setting, just because the
prisoners may treat them in a particular way.
I think we need to take a look at VRI technology.
We can use VRI technology anywhere, and still,
though, regardless of what you explain to them,
they seem to be unwilling to do that. So if you
cannot find an in-person interpreter, then we
need to look at video relay interpreting.
Some interpreters
must have a very clean background. They
-- can't have a criminal record.
We had one interpreter who had to go through and
take a variety of courses, and after three to six
months, they were were allowed to go in and provide
that interpretation. So some of the the hurdles
that they're asked to go through is difficult.
But I think VRI can be supportive. Many of the
officers seem unwilling to understand, or don't
understand. It's very very frustrating.
There's so much that has been developed outside in
the real world, and then it's not being allowed to
exist within the prison system to support deaf
individuals. So I'm just here to tell everyone
that I've seen it for myself, those services
are not being provided in appropriate ways.
>> Delbert Whetter: Wow. Self-advocacy is definitely a skill
deaf people must have, and we need organizations
to partner with us in recognizing the value of
these deaf service organizations to partner with.
And often inmates or those incarcerated
are denied where the organization
could pursue this further and try to enforce
it. So it seems deaf people must become their
own advocates, and we need these organizations
to really help enforce what is expected. Sonya?
>> Sonya Mangham: My ex-husband had quite a bit of
experience with the prison system in Illinois, just like you
John.
The frustrations and the struggles that you went
through trying to find interpreters, the abuse, the
neglect that you experienced, everything that you
went through. The boundaries being crossed, the lack
of communication, my ex-husband experienced all of
that. It is truly heartbreaking. And so he was able
to sue and received a settlement. And there were
some people who lost their jobs behind that. And so
it's just, like, too bad. And so what you need to do
is find a good attorney who's willing to work with
you, a good attorney who will listen, who you can
share with, and who will advocate and fight for you.
Because they can be beat, the system can be beat,
and it can help you rebuild, John, specifically. So
it's happened to a friend of mine as well, and
so I'm just letting you know what, we're human.
Deaf, hearing, we are the same. And so if they treat
hearing people better than us in the system, that's
not allowed. And so we need to be treated equally
and be provided the same resources and same
communication. And so I'm happy that you've been
able to share with us, John, my friends have kind of
experienced the same thing. They've walked in your
shoes as well. And so it's amazing to see you here.
>> Delbert Whetter: Yes. One more question, panelists, I see
here in the Q&A regarding the miranda rights. This happens
to
everyone after they've been arrested, right,
where they are read their rights. And we know
there's a lot of legalese and complicated legal
English terminology in these miranda rights. So
panelists: how do you think these could be altered
or improved in order for deaf people in the system
to have greater access? This can fall to any of
our panelists. Damara, does anyone have any thoughts?
Sandra?
>> Sandra Hatibovic: I can do it simply. It's very very
difficult to try to change the Miranda laws. So what I'm
hoping
they'll do to consider in the future is doing
an addendum for people with limited language
abilities, that they would provide more simplistic
language, more humble language for people who don't
understand English well, and/or provide sign
language -- a sign language translation of that.
And so that there would be some type of
addendum -- instead of changing the miranda laws,
add an addendum to expand upon them for
clarification's sake. So hopefully that'll
be something that happens for us in the
future. It's a challenging process for sure.
>> Delbert Whetter: We have one more question in the Q&A
here which addresses Sonya and John. What was your
social life like while incarcerated, or while
dealing with law enforcement? Did you interact
with other prisoners, and how did you navigate
communicating in the setting that you were in?
>> John Yeh: In terms of the social life, I
think that a lot of it depends on your
location. It was horrible in New
Jersey. In Federal prison,
there were a lot of white-collar criminals,
so there was a different
type or caliber of people. There was a level
of sophistication. Many of those incarcerated
individuals were willing to write back and
forth with me using written English, so that's
how communication happened there. Some of them
actually wanted to learn some vocabulary of
sign language. There were some who certainly
looked down on me because I was deaf.
In prison, people come and go-- constantly revolving.
In my prison, there were around 300 inmates, but over seven
and a half years I met over a thousand inmates –
those who came and served their time and left, others coming
in and out. Most of those I met were friendly – we became
friends.
Now, that I am out of prison, they informed me of the policy
that states that I cannot communicate with ex-inmates for
five years.
I think that it is silly, but that is the policy so I will
respectfully follow that.
To answer your question, was the social life good? Yes, some
people were nice and some were not.
It really depends on the individuals, but still my
communication with them was very limited.
We communicated through writing back and forth with paper
and pen.
>> Delbert Whetter: Well in the documentary "Being
Michelle," we see she must be very brave, and
navigates very difficult situations, as have you
both today, and thank you so much for sharing your
experiences with us. Many individuals
feel that that's more private or it is a
previous part of their life and they don't want
to re-experience it through sharing it, which
is definitely understandable. But I want to thank
you so much for sharing your stories and allowing
us to bear witness to it, because without that
information, it's hard for us to push for change.
So thank you so much for your participation,
and we want to gather and collect more of
these stories and individual accounts to build up
the data bank that we have to push for change. John?
>> John Yeh: Yeah, if I can just take a quick moment to
share: my wife watched the movie with me,
and we talked about the experience. And my wife
asked if the story was true to life.
And I explained to her that, yes, there's a lot
of abuse and bullying and whatnot that goes on,
and that I saw it and witnessed it for myself. So
it's not like this -- Hollywood
tends to exaggerate things, but what I can tell
you is that what I saw with -- the movie, the
experience was true to life. It was very accurate,
and there was a lot that was unspoken as well.
And I hope that when people see it they are
taken aback, they are understanding more and
more that deaf people are suffering. And
so I think, as has been stated,
there's a lot that needs to be done, and there's
a lot of the stories that have not been shared.
We've heard some things but
the rest of the stories need to be told.
>> Delbert Whetter: Yes, thank you so much. Well, an
hour goes by very quickly, does it not, with all of
our wonderful discussion today. I want to
thank our panelists: Damara, Sandra, Sonya,
and John. I want to thank you, our interpreters
and our live captioner for joining us today.
This panel will be available on our website and
you'll be able to watch it at a future date. Also,
please catch "Being Michelle," which is available
for viewing at several locations and will be
at the Cleveland International Film Festival,
which is an incredible film festival, and we were
honored to be invited to show the film there.
Thank you everyone and have a fantastic day.